Shadow Minister, Terri Butler, on teaching at the ACDE Deans’ Forum
The Shadow Minister for Employment Services, Workforce Participation and the Future of Work, Young Australians and Youth Affairs, Terri Butler, shares her views on the value of teachers and the need, on many levels, to improve the attractiveness of teaching as a profession.
The full transcript of Ms. Butler’s address to the ACDE Deans’ Forum in Melbourne on 26 October 2018 is below.
View the video here.
Listen to the podcast here.
Introduction Professor Tania Aspland, ACDE President:
Let me go now to introduce to you Terri Butler MP, a friend of education, I want to say at the outset. Terri is here because we’ve been trying to negotiate a meeting for some time. Terri with Tanya Plibersek, met with some deans and was very interested in the challenges within the professional experience domain. There wouldn’t be a person in the room that wouldn’t agree that there are some challenges around funding, around organisation, around status, around support. We’re all working with it in different ways, but certainly, there’s a conversation to be heard.
Now Terri Butler, for those of you who don’t know, who don’t come from Queensland, is the Labor member for Griffith, (Kevin Rudd’s former seat) and is the Shadow Minister for Employment Services, Workforce Participation and the Future of Work. It’s very timely that Terri is here today after Jan Owen’s provocation last night. She’s really got us thinking about the future and the future of work. The statistics were amazing, her report as well. [Terri is also] Shadow Minister for Young Australians and Youth Affairs, so you’re right in our space, and Shadow Assistant Minister for Equality. There are many, many people in this room who are concerned about equity and access. You’re absolutely the right person to have here with us.
Upon to entering politics, Terri was a principal of a leading national law firm, Maurice Blackburn. Her peers in the profession recognised her as a leading employment and workplace relations lawyer. She was among a handful of lawyers consistently ranked as the Queensland’s best lawyers in that field in Doyle’s guide to the legal profession. Terri has also served on governance bodies most recently, the Board of the WCA Queensland Limited. She lives locally with her husband and two children and was elected to the seat in 2014.
As I said, Terri brings a confidence and interest and concerns about great teachers and their impact on community confidence. She wants to pursue a better understanding of workforce arrangements and the most important thing of all in positioning our young people for their future. So, as I said, this is timely for you to be with us. Some of us might have seen Terri on last week’s ABC Q&A. You got a big cheer from me from the lounge room for your input. If you did watch Q& A, you would have witnessed Terri’s tremendous respect for the teaching profession and I think consequently, teacher educators or I hope so. Would you please welcome Terri Butler to the podium to address us this morning. Thankyou.
Terri Butler, MP:
Thank you so much. Well, it’s great to be here, of course. I’ve brought my phone up, not so I can text things about you all back to other Labor party members, but just because Tania has asked me to make sure I keep to time. I know the worst thing in the world is to start a day and already be out of the sync with the programme after the first session. I’m Terri. Just like Kevin, I am from Queensland and I’m here to help. I saw him this week. It was so lovely. I’m mostly here because even though this is not my specific portfolio area, I do have a very, very keen interest in teaching, teachers and teacher education.
Of course, before I get started, I should acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we meet and join Tania in paying my respects to elders past and present. I’d also like to acknowledge Tania. Thank you so much for allowing me to come along and be with you here today. It’s just absolutely wonderful to join you and so many fascinating people, educators, regulators, consortia representatives, people who have got an interest in teaching performance, but more broadly than that, people who have an interest in teaching. That’s important because it’s really quite difficult to imagine anything more important than teaching, isn’t it? Therefore, it’s difficult to imagine anything more important than teacher education when we face the future.
I’m so pleased you had Jan Owen last night, one of the best thinkers in this country about the future of work and the issues facing young people today. One of the most genuinely caring and thoughtful people working in that field. I’m pleased that she spoke to you. I thought that the Foundation for Young Australians’ report a couple of years ago, actually a few more now, 2014 I think the report came out, was a really significant piece of work. I’m pleased that you’re engaging with her. It is particularly great to be here with such great professionals who are interested in this topic on what is at least in Queensland, World Teacher’s Day. I understand that there are different days for celebrating World Teachers Day, much like the Queen’s birthday. But I assure you it is World Teachers Day in Queensland today.
I see the Queenslanders nodding. My staff are busily out driving around the electorate, dropping off hampers to teachers to say thank you for the work that they all do today. It’s very nice of them to be doing that. I wish I could be there with them. My interest, of course, comes from a range of sources. I am a mother of two children as Tania said. They’re both at a small state school in my electorate. One is in grade one and one is in grade three. My mother is a teacher aide, a long-term teacher aid. She’s presently at a small state school and the member for Bowman’s electorate. Slightly different politics, lovely school.
I’m sure you all know Andrew Laming when I mentioned the member for Bowman. My sister is a teacher at the same school. I know it’s really annoying when politicians get up and say, “I know teachers. I know some teachers, I must be an expert on this.” It doesn’t drive any particular expertise, but it does drive interest. Particularly since my sister lived with me for six months last year when she was moving to Brisbane while working at the school as a teacher. Honestly, the woman would work all day, get home, have dinner, go back into her room, open the laptop and work all night.
Obviously, I think a lot of people in this room can relate to that, but it’s not a model that’s sustainable for teachers, is it? To have that sort of workload, to be able to engage in the things that we want them to engage in like continuing professional development. My interest also comes from two professional sources. Firstly, I was until recently the shadow assistant minister for universities, which is how I came to know Greg and how I came to meet Tanya. I was also and I’m still on the Employment, Education and Training Standing Committee of the House of Representatives. But I was the deputy chair of that committee when we published our school to work transition report, which I want to mention a little about to you today because it’s quite a recent report.
I guess the things I wanted to mention specifically, that … I think we all agree that teacher education and teacher status are important to lifting the … I hesitate to say the word performance. I know you’re saying performance all day, but performance sounds a little managerial for something that is so much bigger. Something that is about where the kids can learn about the world and where the kids can learn about themselves. You’re not just performing as teachers or your students and not just performing as teachers, but they are demonstrating an aptitude for and a willingness to, and a commitment to developing the minds of children.
Their proficiency, their aptitude, their commitment, their dedication, all of these things can be wrapped up in the word performance. But performance can be a little bit opaque, I think sometimes, and doesn’t really do justice to what we’re really asking of teachers. On a day when we’re looking at those things and we’re thinking about those things, it is important to mention some of the issues that we think are having an impact on teacher’s ability to really excel in their roles. I don’t need to tell you the statistics about why that’s important. You’re well aware that a teacher performance and I will use the word for shorthand reasons, but please take the caveats I mentioned. Teacher performance is the single most important in-school factor to student success.
Of course, the greater factors for student success tend to be outside of the school. They tend to be in the family home, they tend to be demographic. They tend to relate to things like socioeconomic status to disability, to indigenous status and of course to students who are outside the metropolitan cities. But the in-school performance success question is really driven by teacher performance. We know it goes without saying that’s why teacher performance is important, but I’m going to say it anyway.
I think it’s important to talk about, I think, the very complicated intersectional factors that have an impact on where the teachers can excel and where the students can therefore excel. I know you’re often told things that seem very straightforward, like lift the ATAR for entry. I certainly support the proposition that ATARs should be … that a higher ATAR is important. That making sure that students, when they enter into undergraduate study, are ready and able to do well in that undergraduate study and to come out ready to become a junior beginning, entry-level teacher. But I don’t think that that factor can be discussed in isolation.
I just wanted you to talk a little bit about what I think personally, and these are my personal views. I’m not in the portfolio as I mentioned, but I do want to give you my views about this having personal interests but also some personal professional involvement in this question. Firstly, I think you can’t get to teacher quality without making the point that there is presently not necessarily an inclination for people to want to become teachers. This is the status point. I think, sometimes status is read as code for pay and I think pay is important. But I also think status should be thought about as respect which is discussed and as power, which is often not discussed.
If you’re a parent thinking about what occupation you would like your child to enter and what you’re going to encourage them to do, or if you’re a 15-year-old kid trying to work out what to do with your future, pay will be important to you of course. Teacher pay is something that is recognised as an issue, I think quite rightly. But status, value, respect, and power will come into that, whether you articulate these issues in those terms or not. If your teachers are always harried, stressed, burnt out, overworked, that’s not going to be attractive. If you’re always scrambling for resources at your school and your teachers are always feeling like they’re a day late and a buck short at getting what they need to teach and putting it on students, well, that’s not going to make teaching look attractive.
If your teachers don’t seem to have the power to get what they deserve to be able to practise their profession well, it’s not going to be attractive. I think when we talk about status and when we talk about value, it’s not so much an exclusive question of getting society to value teachers more. You all know the statistics about teachers being one of the most trustworthy and respected professions far more than politician, I might hasten to add. Respect is not enough. Making the profession desirable for people to want to enter is important. Status, respect, pay, and the implicit thing that is never discussed but is always important, power, conditions, what it’s like, what the experience of being a teacher is like.
That’s the same question I think in terms of retention and we all know that retention is an issue past those first few years as well. Inclination is a factor. Readiness to enter is a factor. The ATAR question is important. I don’t resolve from it. What affects readiness to enter? Schooling, of course. It’s a very circular question and early learning. I’m so pleased with early … you’ve got early education and care represented here at this important conference today. In my party, we recognise the value of early education and care. We recently made an announcement that we would not just properly fund four-year-old kindergarten, but that we would extend that to three-year-old kindergarten as well.
It’s something that we have wanted to do for a long time and I can’t tell you how proud I … In fact, I think it’s in Gough Whitlam’s 1969 speech, the importance of education and care. I think the time has come for this idea and there’s now a groundswell of support for the importance of early childhood education and care. It’s wonderful to see represented here today. Of course, we have to look at schooling. Now, I know people will say to me on the streets as they do, “Throwing money at it won’t fix it.” But it is just fundamental. You can’t do well unless you’re resourced properly.
Asking teachers to constantly be trying to find creative ways to get reams of paper and coloured pencils while what they should be focused on is, understanding the needs of those 25 or so kids in the classroom and making sure they’re getting the support that they need is ridiculous. We can do better as a nation when it comes to publicly funding education. You all know that we’re below the OECD average in relation to public funding for schools education. We’re above the OECD average in relation to privately funded education in terms of the amount of private dollars going into school level education. It’s not great because of course that in itself inherently implies inequality. Of course, we all want the equity concern to be first and foremost.
We’ve committed to putting the $14 billion back that has been cut from schools education. We’ve made it very clear that we will do that. It is a fundamental election commitment for us. It is something that I will be talking about with all of my constituents on an ongoing basis between now and the federal election. I think this election is in a large part about education because this election is about the future of our nation. We’ve said we will do those two things in relation to early childhood and schools education.
The next factor in relation to readiness to enter is, of course, the identification of limitations. You will all say to me there are some great kids with low ATARs but would be excellent teachers because of the non-ATAR related qualities that they can bring. Of course, we want to see better focus on readiness to enter and of course better focus on readiness to graduate with something that is … I certainly don’t need to talk about with this group. You’re well aware of those concerns and issues. The other thing that I think is rarely talked about explicitly is the impact of university funding models on who universities seek to enrol in and in what courses. I just think we should say it. When you’ve got billions of dollars being cut out of higher education, of course, there’s going to be an incentive on universities to enrol students in courses that are lower cost. Universities use funding that they get from all sources to cross-subsidise other things like research. This is an incentive that is a challenge. It’s something that has been raised with us by many universities from the Group of Eight through to every other university in this country. I don’t pretend to have the answers to that at all.
I don’t suggest that universities are deliberately over-enrolling students in courses for financial reasons. I think we have to surface the incentive that does exist as a consequence of the funding model of universities. I’m not here to tell you all to stop doing it because I’m not suggesting you are. I’m also not suggesting it’s something that the deans of education have any control over. But I do think that we need to explicitly acknowledge the fact that there are funding incentives that are not about school educational, teacher quality in the way that universities are set up. I also think that that needs to be part of the discussion about what drives enrolments in teaching just in a pragmatic way. That necessitates a proper consideration of how research is funded in this country, what government should do in relation to research.
I’m certainly looking forward to seeing what is done in the future in that regard. You probably know that our committee is looking at the funding for research at the moment and we’re looking forward to seeing the report coming out of that, or at least the way that research money is allocated. What doesn’t help with that is when there’s a couple of billion dollars’ worth of cuts to university funding as there was in last my four … $2.2 million over four years, equivalent to about nine and a half thousand undergraduate places each of the years of those cuts. Universities Australia who are here today will tell you that was their modelling, the nine and a half thousand for that cut. Funding cuts to higher education does not help teacher quality. Funding cuts to higher education has unseen, but nonetheless important impacts on the way that universities operate, particularly in those courses that are considered to be lower cost to teach in some ways. I also think we have to acknowledge another issue about the quality of graduates that is never talked about. That is how hard it is to be an undergraduate right now.
The undergraduates of today are not the undergraduates of our day. They’re working 30 hours a week to try to afford to pay the rent. The income support is less and they’re expected to be able to understand more and more sophisticated content knowledge at university. Of course, that’s not an argument for lowering the quality of what’s taught or lowering the quality of the way that we teach or making courses less demanding. I think the challenge is back on us as politicians to have a look at the student incomes question and what impact that has. If you’re trying to work a full-time or almost full-time job and trying to study and trying to do placements and trying to pay rent then that must have an impact. I don’t have the answers for that one either. I absolutely do not.
But I acknowledge them again. They do great work in relation to looking at student incomes through their student income survey. This is something that at some point we’re going to have to grapple with unless we only want teachers who had the advantage of living with their parents while they went to university, near a university, not having to pay rent and being subsidised for those few years. I’ve got nothing against parents’ subsidy. I intend to do that myself, but it exacerbates the impediments faced by those who already lack advantage.
It means that if you’re a kid with a disability whose parents are already struggling to make ends meet or a kid from Roma or a kid from Broome, it gets harder and harder really to overcome those financial impediments to being a student. I think we also have to take a look at, in terms of teacher quality, this issue of professional development. We can’t just keep saying everyone should get involved in professional development without thinking about the real economic factors that have an impact on their ability to do it.
Every teacher I’ve ever met wants to engage in professional development. They want to continuously improve. They want to get better and better and learn more and keep their understanding of pedagogy up to date and understand the key to better teaching through research that’s being done, understand the evidence. We have said that we want to make it easier for people to understand what the cutting edge research and development in relation to teaching and pedagogy is. We’ve committed to establishing an evidence institute in the event that we, we in government, there’ll be a Teaching Excellence Institute.
It’s a fantastic commitment that Tanya has made as the Education Shadow Minister. It’s a $280 million commitment to an Education Evidence Institute to be there for both teachers and students to make the evidence available. To give teachers the opportunity to be able to use that, develop their practise, improve the way they do their job, we have to, I think recognise … I started with this, the same factors that might reduce people’s inclination to going into teaching, also reduce the ability for teachers to engage in professional development. That’s workload.
The report that I mentioned before from the Employment Education and Training Committee made the point that teachers are doing a lot more than teaching; their career counselling, their social working, and encourage government to look at what might be done to make teachers more available for teaching. You all know because you’ve looked at the OECD and PISA data much more than I have, very clearly. That teachers here have more contact hours than teachers at schools in Europe. They’re expected to spend more of their time teaching and yet also be available for all of these other things, social work, career counselling, but also then do professional development.
Something’s got to give. Now, our report suggested putting the social workers or youth workers into schools to take up some of the load that is currently being carried by teachers. I’m not announcing a policy about this. It’s a suggestion that’s something that could be looked at. We thought in my committee that there is a real issue in relation to teacher availability for professional development. Asking teachers to just work harder and do more is not going to be the answer because that’s not how you … that pulls in the opposite direction to raising the status of teaching, clearly.
Asking teachers to take on more workload, have a greater propensity to burn out, by fitting in more things into the day is not the answer to making it a more attractive profession. It’s not the answer to attraction, it’s not the answer to retention. It pulls in the opposite direction. I think when we talk about these issues of teacher quality, it’s just not helpful to do that in a vacuum from those real economic and social factors that drive students, teachers ability to perform well.
Of course, that gets back to our expectations of you … when I say our, I don’t mean mine and a couple of mates, I mean the community’s expectations of you. You’re expected to turn out teachers. I think that’s too much to expect. You should be turning out people ready to be teachers. In other words, I think there has to be a role for schools to play in developing people, in giving them the opportunity to become better, to be fully formed teachers. You’re expected to turn out people who have spent three or four years studying full time. You’re turning out people who’ve spent that time studying, working, probably going to some parties. The undergraduate experience should not be completely different to ours.
You’re expected to attract the best and brightest while seeking to attract them to a profession that is a difficult one, is a hard one. It’s vocational, of course. You wouldn’t do it if you didn’t love it. But that shouldn’t be exploited, that love for teaching. It’s all very well for me as a politician to get up and say these things to you. I’ve told you what policy announcements we’ve made. I’ve articulated to you what I think some of the challenges are for the future. I certainly don’t come here and say I have a set of answers, I’ve written them all down, they’re all fully funded and we’re going to implement them tomorrow. I do think it’s important that we continue the dialogue about some of those factors that drive teacher quality and teachers experience.
We have to be realistic about what can be asked of deans in that process. As the representatives of the education deans around the country, I’d like to give you the right impression with my view of the work that you do. The right impression is, I’m incredibly grateful to you all. At the end of the day, we have an excellent schooling system in this country. We can talk about what can be improved and we have to, that’s our job. But that shouldn’t be couched in negative language only. We should acknowledge that we have great teachers, committed teachers, dedicated teachers, that you have selected people to go into this field who are great. That you have then taken them, worked with what you had, turned them out, let them go into a situation where they’re going into really difficult workplaces sometimes, done the best that you can and continue to do that.
I don’t come here in any way lacking in gratitude, I think what you’re doing is … As I said, nothing could be more important than teaching and therefore nothing can be more important than teaching education. I do think there are challenges. I intend to continue to remain interested in and engaged with those challenges. My portfolio now includes the future of work. I’m as concerned, apprehensive, excited, optimistic, all of those things at once as anyone about the future of work. But what is very clear is that we won’t get anywhere without great foundations through education. So thank you for the work that you’re doing. I have run over despite bringing my phone up. I’m sorry Tania.
Tania Aspland: We have got time for a few questions.
Terri Butler: It’s been a pretty tough week in politics this week. If you’re interested in that too, by all means, go ahead and ask me. We will be looking at a new parliament when we go back in a couple of weeks’ time. Not a new parliament formally, but quite a different parliament in the sense that, Kerryn Phelps will be there having won, I’m quite confident the Wentworth by-election. We’ll be looking at a situation for the first time in this parliament where the government has only 75 of 150 seats.I expect that will change some dynamics, but all means if you’re interested in that, ask me. People who are still recovering from estimates, so are my staff. It’s been a big week for them too. Our interest, of course, was not quite in your patch so hopefully, none of my friends have been too cranky. If there’s any questions about estimates, I’m very happy to take them. I should say that the institute … we said very positive things about you in our report. In the committee report that I mentioned, I’m sure you’ve seen it. The work that you’re doing is of course very important, so thank you for what you’re doing and of course to the department as well.
Claire Wyatt Smith from Institute Learning Sciences, Teacher Education, ACU: Thank you for your presentation. Provocative on so many fronts, especially around issues of performance and quality and budgets. I’m just interested in your thinking about … We talked about the importance of teacher quality and performance in schools. Some recent report suggests that we have 13 years of education, but a child only has approximately 11 years of learning happening in those 13 years due to a range of factors. What’s your position on linking education and health considerations as impacting learning progression throughout schooling?
Terri Butler: That’s a really important point of course. One of my staff members is a nurse. He has young children by the primary school and now high school. He has been involved in the PNC and he is probably the most vociferous lobbyists I have about the social determinants of education and health and the connection between the two of them. I certainly engage with my schools about what can be done to seek to improve those. I think one of the questions that we have as a nation is how to do that in a meaningful way. I think our health system obviously very complicated. I’d like to see more of a focus on preventative health. I think that public health campaigns can assist both parents and children.
I know that sounds a little amorphous, perhaps a little abstract, a little removed from the coalface, but I think that’s important. We’ve also got very state-based programmes in relation to hearing, sight, another test in schooling, which I think are obviously very worth looking at. The macro difficulty is the uncertainty around funding in relation to schooling and what that means. The constant fighting over what the priorities are during school hours. Those programmes, I think are fighting not just for recognition as public health measures, but for recognition as appropriate measures during children’s schooling. Which is all kind of a way of saying we don’t get to a situation where a child health is administered as well as it should be without resolving some of the big funding and complexity questions that arise.
As you know, when Labor was last in government, we sought to have a much more collaborative approach across the federation with the other jurisdictions in relation to health and hospitals. We had a preventative healthcare agency and we sought to ensure that primary health was functioning very well both through support for GPs but also setting up Medicare locals, GP super clinics. We’ve been disappointed by the erosion of some of that work since we left office. I don’t want to get too Patterson. I’ve already been a bit Patterson with the complaint about the cuts to schools and the cuts to universities and the cuts to … the failure to properly fund early childhood education and care.
We do worry that there’s not enough of a focus on that primary health and preventative health at the moment and that would have some impact on child health as well. It’s probably something I’ve not been as engaged in as the other methods we’ve spoken about today. But I can tell you that Catherine King, who’s the Shadow Health Minister, is really taking a close look at those two issues, preventative health, and primary health care to see what can be done to restore some of that. Obviously, there’s some really obvious things like don’t freeze the MBS schedule so that doctors’ business models aren’t being compressed and there’s not more out-of-pocket costs.
My electorate has the second highest GPA out-of-pocket costs in the state, in Queensland of all the federal electorates. It’s something that is a constant pressing issue for us.
Tania Aspland: Thanks Terri, very much. I’d like to pose a question to you, Terri, just the last couple of minutes we have. We’re all aware of the teacher bashing that’s going on by the public and by a number of politicians, actually. We’re going to work on that next year. I think there’s a fair bit of teacher education bashing that goes on as well. We’ve been the recipients of that, both from Tanya Plibersek and Simon Birmingham in the past. My concern, Terri, is that a lot of the politicians who make derogatory comments about teacher educators and their programmes are absolutely not aware at all the programmes, the teaching, the pedagogy, the assessment, the engagement with students in higher education settings. If you’d asked Minister Birmingham what’s in the curriculum of a teacher education, he would not know. Have any of them been into our classrooms, talk to our students? No. My question to you is how can we work together to inform politicians in particular as well as the public about the wonderful things that are going on in many diverse ways across institutions that are really working hard to build the best teachers for this nation? What’s your take on how we can work more closely together in a positive manner?
Terri Butler: Well, of course, this was addressed in TEMAG. I should have said when I mentioned Greg Craven before that, my committee when we looked at the … we did a bit of an environment scan in producing our school to work transitions report, obviously looked closely at the TMAG report. As you know, Tania, Greg is continuing to raise the issues in that report and to emphasise the importance of them. As you know, the report suggested a new national regulator for initial teacher education and looked at this question of accreditation of courses and the government’s response, which has been to bring together … I always get your acronym wrong. I’m sorry.AITSL? Thank you. It’s hard for some reason I’m a bit of a blank about it. I always heard the institute … and TEQSA? I think we’ve got someone from TEQSA. He’s been in previously with Taxa here before. I’m just giving you a shout out. I think that that makes sense of course, but of course universities often … universities are expected to self-accredit. Bringing the regulators closer together is, I think very important. But what’s more important is collaboration and discussion between the schools’ sector, government, the tertiary educators, more generally these forum universities, Australia, other groups.
People tend to have strong views and they tend to be political views in the sense that they’re … You know all the battlegrounds. Should we fund for need or fund for outcome? Should we be focusing on disadvantaged students to a greater or lesser extent? These are political questions. As I said to you, I will be making a very strong political point in the lead up to the next election. That if you care about the future, you must fund schools, you must fund early learning, you must fund vocational education, higher education of course.
The reason I’ll be doing that is because, people will and should vote on which of the two major parties is going to do the best for the future of this nation. They should and will vote therefore on which party they think will have the better education policy. I think sometimes, the discussion about the kind of hackneyed old, should it be the three R’s, are teachers to blame, when we slip in PISA rankings teacher’s fault. It’s a manifestation of a greater issue, which is the fact that this deeply felt, crucial, political and quite rightly has an impact on the future of the country and therefore on the election.
I don’t know that educating politicians is the right approach. I think that making the case is the right approach. Recognising that you are and something that … the value of teachers and the value of teacher education, as I said, I don’t think anything is more important. If you’ve got a case to make about why teacher education is excellent than make it. There’s no point just getting annoyed when people say unpleasant things. I mentioned the member for Bowman earlier, I know he’s particularly provocative. Fight back by arguing and not just by slamming him.
Tania Aspland: Okay. I think we’ll leave it there. We appreciate the passion. We appreciate your support. We appreciate your provocations as well. Thank you very much for your time today, especially coming in after Senate estimates last night. Would you please join me in thanking Terri for her presentation?
Terri Butler: Thanks, everyone.